Legislature(1993 - 1994)

09/23/1993 01:30 PM House TAA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
                                                                               
          HOUSE TASK FORCE ON ALCOHOL AND ALCOHOL ABUSE                        
                        Ketchikan, Alaska                                      
                       September 23, 1993                                      
                            1:30 p.m.                                          
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  Representative Brian Porter, Chairman                                        
  Representative Eldon Mulder                                                  
  Representative Joe Sitton   (via Teleconference)                             
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
  Representative Jim Nordlund                                                  
  Representative Richard Foster                                                
                                                                               
  OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                    
                                                                               
  Senator Robin Taylor                                                         
  Representative Bill Williams                                                 
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  Public testimony on alcohol abuse.                                           
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  LOREN JONES, Director                                                        
  Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse                                        
  Department of Health and Social Services                                     
  P.O. Box 110607                                                              
  Juneau, AK  99811-0607                                                       
                                                                               
  GLENN HACKNEY                                                                
  Former State Senator                                                         
  1136 Sunset Drive                                                            
  Fairbanks, AK  99709                                                         
                                                                               
  KATHY BLAUSER                                                                
  Ketchikan Youth Services                                                     
  1621 Tongass #103                                                            
  Ketchikan, AK 99901                                                          
                                                                               
  ANITA HALL                                                                   
  Alaskans for Drug Free Youth                                                 
  2417 Tongass, #114                                                           
  Ketchikan, AK 99901                                                          
                                                                               
  TOM COYNE                                                                    
  P.O. Box 5283                                                                
  Ketchikan, AK 99901                                                          
                                                                               
  GAY MEDINA                                                                   
  P.O. Box 8                                                                   
  Craig, AK  99921                                                             
                                                                               
  JIM ELKINS                                                                   
  312 Front St.                                                                
  Ketchikan, AK 99901                                                          
                                                                               
  CURT LEDFORD                                                                 
  Health Alliance                                                              
  514 Lake St., Ste. E                                                         
  Sitka, AK  99835                                                             
                                                                               
  KRISANNE RICE                                                                
  Health Alliance                                                              
  514 Lake St., Ste. E                                                         
  Sitka, AK  99835                                                             
                                                                               
  DICK HINDMAN                                                                 
  P.O. Box 1066                                                                
  Petersburg, AK  99833                                                        
                                                                               
  SONNY ANDERSON                                                               
  P.O. Box 83                                                                  
  Craig, AK  99921                                                             
                                                                               
  JEANNE BOOK                                                                  
  3050 Fifth Ave.                                                              
  Ketchikan, AK 99901                                                          
                                                                               
  DAVID FISHER                                                                 
  P.O. Box 805                                                                 
  Craig, AK  99921                                                             
                                                                               
  TOM STOCK                                                                    
  P.O. Box 1108                                                                
  Wrangell, AK  99929                                                          
                                                                               
  CECELIA BIRD                                                                 
  P.O. Box 5404                                                                
  Ketchikan, AK 99901                                                          
                                                                               
  BARBARA CRAVER                                                               
  National Council on Alcoholism                                               
  4th Street                                                                   
  Juneau, AK  99801                                                            
                                                                               
  GREG PEASE                                                                   
  5597 Aiser St.                                                               
  Juneau, AK  99801                                                            
                                                                               
                                                                               
  (As transcribed by PARALEGAL PLUS, Total Law Office Support                  
  Agency, 733 West Fourth Ave., Suite 200, Anchorage, AK                       
  99501)                                                                       
                                                                               
                                                                               
                   LEGISLATIVE TELECONFERENCE                                  
                                                                               
            H. TASK FORCE ON ALCOHOL & ALCOHOL ABUSE                           
                                                                               
                        REGIONAL MEETING                                       
                                                                               
                        KETCHIKAN, ALASKA                                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
                 PUBLIC HEARING ON ALCOHOL ABUSE                               
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER                                                  
  REPRESENTATIVE JOE SITTON                                                    
  REPRESENTATIVE ELDON MULDER                                                  
  REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE                                                     
  TAPE I - SIDE A                                                              
                                                                               
                           PROCEEDINGS                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  We have officially banged the gavel and                    
  we'll commence the meeting.  I would like to welcome you                     
  here and we appreciate being able to be in Ketchikan.  This                  
  is the second meeting this week.  Two days ago we were in                    
  Nome.                                                                        
       The Alcohol Task Force appointed by the speaker of the                  
  House, Ramona Barnes.  On the Task Force are myself                          
  Representative Brian Porter from Anchorage, Representative                   
  Eldon Mulder from Anchorage, Representative Jim Nordlund is                  
  as we speak in Valdez addressing the problems of the needs                   
  of Harbor View and will be joining us teleconference-wise                    
  tomorrow if we do have this meeting going until tomorrow.                    
  Representative Joe Sitton is on the Task Force and is                        
  joining us teleconference-wise from Fairbanks, and                           
  Representative Richard Foster was with us in Nome and was                    
  unable to come down here.                                                    
       We have, as I mentioned, been appointed by the Speaker                  
  of the House to look on a statewide basis at a statewide                     
  policy, statewide expenditures in the areas of apprehensive                  
  alcohol abuse.  We don't have a fixed agenda in terms of                     
  having predetermined notions that we're here to prove.  We                   
  really are trying to be objective in terms of looking at                     
  what is going on listening to what perceived needs are.  We                  
  would like to pay particular attention to any programs or                    
  approaches that appear to be working in this specific area                   
  or state so that we could document it and carry it to other                  
  areas of the state.                                                          
       I think we do have two things that we must recognize.                   
  One that the state has -- has had for some time.  Most of                    
  the experience of members of the Task Force and continues to                 
  have substantial problems in the area of alcohol abuse.                      
       The other thing that we must realize is that the                        
  resources the state has to address these problems have                       
  diminished and probably will continue to diminish over the                   
  next several years.                                                          
       With this in mind it would appear that we should find                   
  out what is the most expedite, what is the most efficient,                   
  what is the most productive way to address the problem and                   
  get at it.                                                                   
       With that in mind we are holding these hearings to                      
  address the problems and try to find what information is                     
  available.  We will be in Fairbanks on October 4th, return                   
  and have another meeting in Anchorage, December 1st.                         
       Then we'll compiled the data that we have acquired                      
  these four meetings and continue in Juneau during the                        
  session to try to formulate a report hopefully with some                     
  good ideas on directions to proceed.                                         
       On the teleconference today we have Anchorage,                          
  Fairbanks, Juneau, Petersburg, Sitka, Wrangell and Craig and                 
  have people in some of those sites that wish to testify.  I                  
  would like to begin by recognizing the Director of the                       
  Division of Alcohol and Drug Abuse of the state who is Loren                 
  Jones who is in Fairbanks and I'd like to ask him to give us                 
  a general executive summary of what's going on within the                    
  state right now, program wise, budget wise, and his                          
  knowledge of this particular region.                                         
       And then we'll go through rotating through the sites to                 
  receive testimony along with people here in Ketchikan.                       
       So, Loren if you're available, please come forward and                  
  address the Task Force.                                                      
                                                                               
  MR. LOREN JONES:  Thank you much, Representative Porter.                     
  Can you hear me?                                                             
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Sure can.                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. JONES:  Thank you.  It seems like we did this just the                   
  other day in Nome, but interesting, I'm now in Fairbanks and                 
  you're in Ketchikan and we're able to continue this                          
  discussion.                                                                  
       As I pointed out in Nome, I won't take the time to                      
  review all the issues that we reviewed there.  That is part                  
  of the record.  However, for those who are in Southeast and                  
  in Anchorage, just to summarize some of the issues, the                      
  Division of Alcohol and Drug Abuse is statutorily                            
  responsible for issues related to alcohol, alcohol abuse,                    
  alcoholism, intoxicated persons, drug abusers and inhalant                   
  abusers.                                                                     
       This Task Force as entitled is somewhat charged from                    
  the legislature to look at alcohol and alcohol abuse and I                   
  will keep in mind that the division's mandate is much                        
  broader and our resources that are available are used in all                 
  of those areas.                                                              
       In terms of budgetary resources, as part of the packet                  
  for the committee members, you were given the history of our                 
  budget from FY83 through FY94 and while -- if you look at                    
  the total dollars it has increased.  That increase has not                   
  kept up with inflation.  And in fact, we are not about 2-1/2                 
  million dollars below our level that we were at in FY92.  In                 
  the last two years we have had a decrease in the resources                   
  available to us and we've had to try to make some of that up                 
  with additional categorical federal funds, but have not                      
  always been successful.                                                      
       One other issue that I will again reiterate is that we                  
  have three major funding sources for the state effort.  That                 
  which we give out to the local programs.                                     
       First of all is our federal receipts.  We have the                      
  alcohol and drug abuse block grant, which is roughly 2                       
  million dollars a year.  Although that did decline in this                   
  previous year.                                                               
       In addition, we have state general fund dollars.  State                 
  general fund dollars is the largest component in our budget.                 
  The alcohol and drug abuse grant component is only                           
  $900,000.00 of the 17-1/2 or 18 million dollars available.                   
       The rest of those funds come from the general fund,                     
  Mental Health Trust Income Account.  Within our other                        
  components we do have a small community action.                              
  (indiscernible) component that is general funds, and our                     
  alcohol safety action component, which has around a million                  
  dollars is general funds.                                                    
       But the majority of our administrative budget and the                   
  majority of our alcohol and drug abuse grant budget does                     
  come from the Mental Health Trust.  That does pose some                      
  problems for us in that the federal block grant is very                      
  specific while it's a block grant in some requirements.  We                  
  are required and we may only use 5% for administrative                       
  purposes, which we do.  We must spend 20% of the block grant                 
  on prevention.  We just spend 20% of the block grant on                      
  services to women.  That definition is basically targeted to                 
  women with children and/or pregnant women.                                   
       And in addition, we must spend 35% on alcohol abuse                     
  services and 35% on drug abuse services.  If you add up all                  
  those percentages, they are more than 100%.  We are allowed                  
  to double count in categories.  Women services can be                        
  alcohol and/or drugs.  Prevention services may be alcohol                    
  and/or drugs.                                                                
       So, there are some limitations and some requirements                    
  that a certain amount of those funds be spent on services                    
  outside of strictly alcohol and alcohol abuse.                               
       In addition, because of the way in which the issue was                  
  brought before the Court in the Mental Health Trust                          
  Settlement, the beneficiary group of the Mental Health Trust                 
  is defined as chronic alcoholic with psychosis.  That is a                   
  fairly narrow definition in legal terms that has no clinical                 
  definition.  There is no definition in the psychiatric                       
  manual called the DSM3R.  There is nothing in the                            
  International Code of Diseases, the ICD9 Codes, the Medicaid                 
  -- it is a legal term.                                                       
       As such, the Mental Health Trust Board, acting as                       
  trustees, feel that only 25 to 30% of our clients fit that                   
  definition and that should be the level of funding received                  
  from the Mental Health Trust.                                                
       The legislature has appropriated for alcohol and drug                   
  abuse services almost 86 to 90% of my grant budget from                      
  trust.  So, we have tried to be honest to the Trust as best                  
  we can and therefore have not funded drug only programs like                 
  methadone maintenance funds out of Mental Health Trust.  We                  
  have not funded prevention out of Mental Health Trust.                       
       We have tried to avoid funding of youth services out of                 
  the Trust, but that's not always been possible, because some                 
  of the youth services, young person services, might be for                   
  those that are even considered adults.  18 to 21.                            
       So, within those perimeters we must serve the means of                  
  alcohol, other drug abuse and inhalant abusers within that                   
  framework of funding restrictions with a definition of                       
  chronic alcoholics with psychosis, the federal requirements                  
  and what amounts to a limiting and declining base of general                 
  fund dollars that allows us the flexibility between all the                  
  rules attached to the other funding sources.  So, I think                    
  it's important to, as you describe at the end of your work                   
  and for your report to the legislature that in deciding what                 
  direction we should take or recommending to us or putting in                 
  statute certain requirements, you keep in mind the sort of                   
  restrictions we have on federal funding and the restrictions                 
  based on whatever the settlement for the Mental Health Trust                 
  would be.                                                                    
       In addition, we face many growing demands for services,                 
  the population of the state is growing.  There are                           
  increasing issues with inhalant abuse that is demanding of                   
  our resources that without additional funds will take away                   
  for some of our responses to alcohol and alcohol abuse.                      
       There is growing desire for us to be more active with                   
  the Department of Corrections and a desire to be more active                 
  in prevention activities in school and out of school.  To                    
  target services to pregnant women.  To duly diagnose those                   
  who have a mental illness and a substance abuse, alcohol or                  
  drug abuse problem.  And how that manifest itself, those                     
  individuals require a lot of services relatively expensive                   
  services.                                                                    
       There are always those pressures.  And I think as you                   
  listen to the testimony in Nome and you listen to the                        
  testimony over this afternoon and tomorrow you will hear,                    
  again, from the providers in Southeast how some of those                     
  issues are putting pressure on their limited resources and                   
  on the resources of their local community to help contribute                 
  either in-kind services, actual cash, providing the ability                  
  and support to these programs of the impact of diminished                    
  revenues at the local level and how that is a double impact                  
  when you talk about services.                                                
       Again, I would remind you that the Division, except for                 
  the Anchorage Alcohol Safety Action Program, does not                        
  provide any direct services.  All of the funds that we                       
  receive in our grant lines are distributed to local                          
  non-profits, (indiscernible) organizations, cities, boroughs                 
  to provide those services.                                                   
       This administration has taken the position that they                    
  would like to privatize as much of government services this                  
  division has since it's inception in 1972 always provided                    
  funds to public non-profits to municipalities to cities.  We                 
  have never provided any direct services from the state.  We                  
  do not have the equivalent of an API.  We do not have                        
  counselors on staff.  We do not have social workers.  We                     
  have privatized.  We are doing it as cost-efficient as we                    
  feel we can and have tried to keep that system the best we                   
  can.                                                                         
       If you look at the mental health system in terms of                     
  their committing no health center grants, the amount they                    
  have available for grants is twice the amount that we have                   
  available for alcohol and drug abuse grants.                                 
       And so our programs have attempted to provide the best                  
  care to obtain the best possible outcomes for their clients                  
  with resources that have always been under what they felt                    
  was truly necessary.                                                         
       That's sort of a quick executive summary of some of the                 
  pressures that we're under and I'm sure that you will hear                   
  more from those persons who testify and those persons who                    
  have other concerns and other issues and potentially,                        
  hopefully, some quality suggestions for the Task Force on                    
  how we can best address this problem and improve on the                      
  system that I feel is very, very good given the resources                    
  available.                                                                   
       I would like to take just a few minutes as I did in                     
  Nome listening to where the teleconferencing is and knowing                  
  that probably legislators around Anchorage -- I will talk                    
  about those services are available within Southeast Alaska                   
  from basically Yakutat South.  I will start there in                         
  Ketchikan.                                                                   
       There are two funded providers in the Ketchikan area.                   
  The City of Ketchikan is funded to provide alcohol and drug                  
  abuse treatment services, both outpatient and residential.                   
  They also do the alcohol safety action program.  They have a                 
  small withdrawal management unit, a small detox unit and                     
  they are also funded by the Department of Corrections to                     
  provide services within the jail.                                            
       In addition, you have Ketchikan Youth Services, which                   
  is a primary prevention youth alternative project.  They are                 
  also funded to do some aftercare for youth who have gone                     
  outside the Ketchikan community for treatment and provide                    
  that support when they come back in the community.                           
       The school system also has some active projects that                    
  are funded through drug free schools.  In addition, the                      
  Ketchikan Families In Action program and also the                            
  headquarters of the Alaskans For Drug Free Youth are located                 
  there in Ketchikan.  They do receive some support for one                    
  specific project from the Department of Education.  But                      
  otherwise they do not receive any support from the division                  
  there -- a grass root agency that has units throughout                       
  Southeast and other parts of the state.                                      
       Their Executive Director, Linda Adams, is on our                        
  advisory board and she is here in Fairbanks at the Advisory                  
  Board meeting, but I understand she has some of her                          
  volunteers and board members that will testify.                              
       On Prince of Wales Island we have a program funded, the                 
  communities organized for health options or COHO.  C-O-H-O.                  
  They are a combined joint program with the Division of                       
  Mental Health.  They also provide mental health services and                 
  they basically are responsible for all the services on                       
  Prince of Wales Island.                                                      
       They are headquartered in Craig, but they serve an                      
  island, I believe, with a population of around 7,000 people                  
  and they'll correct me if I'm wrong, but about eight or nine                 
  communities there on Prince of Wales Island.                                 
       In Petersburg, we have the Petersburg Council.  They                    
  are an outpatient treatment program and also do youth                        
  services in schools.  In Wrangell we have the Council on                     
  Alcoholism, it's an outpatient program.  And in addition one                 
  of our cast and one of community action against substance                    
  grants is with the Wrangell Police Department there which                    
  has a DARE program in the schools.  I understand the Police                  
  Chief has written to the Task Force with some suggestions                    
  and he may or may not be on the line today.                                  
       In Sitka we have the Sitka Council on Alcoholism, which                 
  is an outpatient program in Sitka and also has a 16 bed                      
  halfway house located there in Sitka.  They also have the                    
  Sitka Team Program, which is a youth alternative, youth                      
  prevention program.  And Sitka also serves as the                            
  headquarters for the Southeast Alaska Regional Health                        
  Corporation.  And they have two programs.  One that serves                   
  the communities of Yakutat, Haines, Skagway, Hoonah and                      
  Hydaburg and other rural communities with family service                     
  workers located in some communities and (indiscernible) to                   
  others.  In addition, they operate the Raven's Way Youth                     
  Treatment Program there.  It is a co-funded program between                  
  the Indian Health Service and ours treat adolescents.  That                  
  is an adventure based program where they spend one month in                  
  a sort of traditional treatment program and the next month                   
  on a wilderness experience that is on another island located                 
  there.  So, SEARCH does have some responsibilities                           
  throughout the region and then is also headquartered.                        
       And then using corporate funds they also operate a                      
  residential treatment program out (indiscernible) hospital                   
  that is not funded by the state, but funded within their                     
  corporate resources.                                                         
       And then in Juneau we have the City and Borough of                      
  Juneau which provides the outpatient, some of the prevention                 
  effort, residential treatment, detox, community service                      
  patrol.  They subcontract with the (indiscernible) Human                     
  Services for halfway house and transitional care or                          
  negotiating for some long term care from that agency.  And                   
  also the youth outpatient programs by using the other                        
  resources of some of the private sector programs in Juneau                   
  and one of our prevention projects.                                          
       In addition, the National Council on Alcoholism in                      
  Juneau affiliate is one of our regional prevention projects.                 
  They are also the site of a clearing house, have computer                    
  access to a federal data basis and federal information.  And                 
  they are also the headquarters for our counselor training                    
  program, which serves all of the programs within southeast.                  
       In addition, in Juneau we do have a couple of private                   
  programs that are outpatient programs that are not funded by                 
  the division.  But those services are not found elsewhere.                   
       So, Southeast has a fairly extensive network.  It is                    
  mature in the sense that the agencies have operated for a                    
  long time.  They have a good working relationship among each                 
  other and they better than I can explain some of the other                   
  issues facing them.  But, there are services in those                        
  communities.                                                                 
       And so, with that, maybe I will stop and if there are                   
  any questions I do have a board meeting going on here in                     
  Fairbanks for the next couple of days.  I will stick around                  
  here until probably about 3 o'clock to listen.  I may stop                   
  by in the morning.  Other than that, I do have staff in                      
  Juneau, they are listening and taking notes.  So, if there's                 
  anything, questions you need answered during the course of                   
  the teleconference, make sure that they're known and the                     
  staff in Juneau can take some notes and I will get that                      
  information to you as soon as we can.                                        
       So, with that, Mr. Chairman, Representative Porter, I                   
  will stop and if there's any questions....                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you very much.  Here I see none.  If                 
  there are any specific that come up it's mentioned that                      
  we'll either catch you before you leave or get some of your                  
  staff.                                                                       
       I think what I would like to do now is ask                              
  Representative Sitton... I have on the print out indication                  
  that he would like to say something.  I don't know if that's                 
  true or not.                                                                 
       Representative Sitton?                                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE SITTON:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  No, not                    
  really.  I've certainly regret not being able to attend the                  
  Nome meeting.  You know we had a pretty big public health                    
  conference going on here right before then.  But, Fairbanks                  
  is on the line here and Fairbanks is very concerned about                    
  these problems.  And we have former Senator Glen Hackney                     
  here.  I'm very pleased to see him here and he might want to                 
  talk to you some.                                                            
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Well, thank you very much.  Before I ask                   
  Senator Hackney if he would like to, I would also like to                    
  recognize our host here in Ketchikan.  Senator Robin Taylor                  
  and Representative Bill Williams are with us at the table.                   
  We welcome their participation and thank them for being                      
  here.                                                                        
       Senator Hackney.                                                        
                                                                               
  SENATOR HACKNEY:  Yeah. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.                   
  This is kind of deja vous all over again for me.  It was, I                  
  believe, 1978 when the task force very similar to what you                   
  have convened operated during the off legislative season.                    
  We held hearings all over the state.  And some of the people                 
  who were involved in that was (indiscernible) from Juneau,                   
  Frank Ferguson, Mike Collata (ph), myself and then there                     
  were several others who were on that task force.                             
       And we concluded at that time that Alaska did indeed                    
  have a problem with alcohol.  About the only thing that                      
  really came out of that hearing was an increase in the tax                   
  on products of alcohol.  We had suggested that there be a                    
  very substantial increase.  What came out of it, you're well                 
  aware of the legislative process, was a much more modest                     
  increase.  However, something good did come out of that                      
  hearing and I'm hopeful that something is going to come out                  
  of your hearing here.                                                        
       Now, I'm testifying today more or less as a                             
  representative of Mothers Against Drunk Driving.  We have                    
  noticed in late months here in Fairbanks an increase in                      
  incidents involving alcohol and underage drivers.  Now, I'm                  
  talking about kids under the age of 21.  There's been a                      
  great increase in serious crashes around this area in that                   
  age group.                                                                   
       Now, as Director Jones pointed out the problem that                     
  they recognize in consumption of alcohol.  There's a figure                  
  that I've used many times in making presentations for man.                   
  In the year 1985 there were 16,850,000 gallons of alcoholic                  
  beverages that were brought into this state.  Now, that came                 
  in under bond.  These are figures from the Department of                     
  Revenue.  Those are figures that cover beer, wine, including                 
  coolards and hard liquor.  And it's very easy for your staff                 
  to check those numbers.                                                      
       There are three things that I'd like to see the                         
  legislature do.  You have before you a bill that was                         
  introduced at the behest of Mothers Against Drunk Driving                    
  which proposes to reduce the presumed blood alcohol content                  
  for being considered drunk from .10 to .08.  That came                       
  within an eyelash of passing a couple of years ago.  It died                 
  in the Senate (indiscernible) Committee in the very waning                   
  days of the legislative session.  It could have come out                     
  very easy.  But, it didn't, and I realize there were some                    
  things within the legislature that made that happen.  But                    
  we'd like to see you reinstate that bill and we would like                   
  to see you pass it this time.                                                
       There are two other things that we would like to see                    
  you do,  and that is to make parents more responsible                        
  financially when their kids are involved in under-age                        
  drinking incidents.  We'd also like to see offenders pay a                   
  greater cost of their incarceration or whatever action is                    
  taken in connection with the -- whatever incident -- drunken                 
  incident they may have been involved in.  Call it pay for                    
  play if you'd like to.  It really isn't play anymore.  Drunk                 
  driving is a serious offense.  I don't need to tell any of                   
  you that.  The Anchorage area and the Fairbanks area attest                  
  to the number of people who have been killed in incidents                    
  involving alcohol.                                                           
       We'd like to see you raise that.  It seems that one                     
  thing that gets people's attention is when their pocketbook                  
  is hit.  I'd like to commit to your staff's attention the                    
  local events column of the Daily News Miner here in                          
  Fairbanks where they list incidents, court cases here in the                 
  Fairbanks area.  And I would call your attention to the                      
  number of cases that involve drinking and driving.  It's                     
  staggering.  It really is.                                                   
       Now, a couple of years ago the City of Fairbanks, again                 
  at the request of MADD, passed a bill and ordinance allowing                 
  billing of offenders where alcohol was involved within the                   
  city limits if, for instance, the police car was involved in                 
  responding to an accident, a fire engine was involved, an                    
  ambulance was involved.  The City of Fairbanks can now bill                  
  offenders.  This is something that you might want to                         
  consider on the state level, also.                                           
       I'm past my five minutes.  I appreciate what you are                    
  doing in conducting this exercise around the state and we                    
  certainly hope that something will come out of it and I                      
  thank you very much.                                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you, Senator.  I have to tell on                     
  myself.  I knew that as soon as one of you finished I would                  
  have a bite of my sandwich in my mouth and I do.  I'll try                   
  to....                                                                       
       Senator, in brief response, your points are very well                   
  taken.  With my background, I agree that DWI is a serious                    
  problem.  To that end the .08 bill in the House passed                       
  through the committee that I am chairman of, the Judiciary                   
  Committee, and is hopefully awaiting early hearing in the                    
  next committee in the House.                                                 
       This year Representative Mulder successfully passed                     
  through the legislature and interlogged a bill that did                      
  provide for required payment by the defendant.  Jail costs                   
  that accrue based on a DWI since -- so some of those things                  
  are in the works are just beginning to see light of day.                     
       And I appreciate your testimony.                                        
       Being totally arbitrary as chairmen are allowed to be,                  
  what I would like to do now, since we have several more                      
  people signed up here in Ketchikan than we apparently do                     
  throughout the network, I'd like to take a couple from here                  
  in Ketchikan as they appear on the list and then rotate                      
  through the rest of the teleconference sites.                                
       So, with that in mind, if I could ask Kathy Blauser to                  
  come forward.                                                                
       Beg your pardon?                                                        
                                                                               
  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  (Indiscernible).                                      
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Just observing.  Okay.                     
  Anita Hall.  Welcome.                                                        
                                                                               
  MS. ANITA HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the                  
  Committee.                                                                   
       My name is Anita Hall and I'm a prevention specialist                   
  and I'm here today representing the Ketchikan Affiliate for                  
  Alaskans for Drug Free Youth.                                                
       We are an organization dedicated to alcohol and other                   
  drug abuse prevention through education.  We are here to                     
  advocate for issues that further our objective.  We will                     
  supply you with a written list of current bills and issues                   
  we would like to see addressed by the legislature and we                     
  would like you to understand our focus.                                      
       Our primary concern is to ensure that our children                      
  never begin to abuse alcohol.  We also know that the                         
  messages we send and with our adult behavior, including the                  
  laws we pass and the way that they are enforced, have a big                  
  impact on our young people.  We would appreciate anything                    
  our legislative leaders can do to keep liquor out of the                     
  hands of our young people.                                                   
       Give local communities the tools to deal with their                     
  alcohol problems and keep our citizens safe from the                         
  violence that often is associated with abuse and use.                        
       We support bills allowing communities to tax alcohol,                   
  drug testing for bus drivers, increasing the penalty                         
  providing liquor to minors, strengthening the minor                          
  consuming laws and lowering blood alcohol limits and keg                     
  registration.                                                                
       We thank you for providing Alaskans with an opportunity                 
  to focus on the serious problems we have with the alcohol in                 
  our state and we very much appreciate your travelling around                 
  the state so concerned citizens can talk to you personally                   
  about the problems we face.                                                  
       We support the following pieces of legislation which                    
  are awaiting action in the '94 session.                                      
       CSSB 42 - Local Sales Tax on alcoholic beverages.                       
  Local communities should be allowed to tax alcohol more to                   
  cover the increased cost of the community for it's use, such                 
  as increased law enforcement and health care.                                
       CSHB 2 - Drug testing for school bus drivers.  School                   
  bus drivers need to be absolutely free from alcohol and                      
  other drugs while they are transporting our most precious                    
  cargo, kids.                                                                 
       HB 28 - Penalty for providing alcohol to a minor.                       
  Adults who give or sell liquor to minors should be given                     
  severe penalties.  We as adults are supposed to be the ones                  
  with better judgement.  Young people should find it very                     
  difficult if not impossible to obtain liquor.                                
       HB 52 - Relating to tax on alcohol beverages.                           
       HB 53 - Increasing tax on alcohol beverages.                            
       We believe that users of alcohol should help pay the                    
  cost associated with the problems caused in our communities.                 
       HB 61 - Lower alcohol limit to 0.08 for OMVI's.  Blood                  
  alcohol level should be lowered to ensure that no one is                     
  driving impaired.                                                            
       Bills we would like to have introduced into the next                    
  session are minors consuming.  We need a change to the law                   
  because of recent court interpretations that impeded police                  
  when they need to take minors into custody.  We understand                   
  that there is legislation already prefiled.  Not a drop.  We                 
  would like to see a .00 for minors.  We believe that no                      
  level of alcohol is safe or acceptable for young people.                     
  Especially when driving.                                                     
       Use and lose.  We would like to see a law mandating an                  
  administrative revocation of driver's license for alcohol                    
  violations by anyone under 21.  We also believe that further                 
  offenses should cause a longer revocation.                                   
       Beer keg registration - would require a person to have                  
  to provide ID when purchasing a keg of beer, sign a sworn                    
  statement that they will not supply the beer to minors, and                  
  state the address where the product will be consumed.  The                   
  object of this is to enable the police to have another tool                  
  that alcohol is kept out of the hands of minors.                             
       Aggregate (indiscernible).  The current law requires                    
  law enforcement agencies to process a marijuana plant into a                 
  dry manicured form before they can weigh it for prosecution.                 
  This is a time-consuming process and we believe our law                      
  enforcement dollars should be spent -- could be better                       
  spent.  We would like to change the law to allow weighing                    
  the whole life plant for purposes of prosecution for these                   
  drug offenses.                                                               
       Tobacco vendors license.  We would like to have the                     
  state law changed to allow local communities to license                      
  tobacco sales so that there is a better mechanism to ensure                  
  that they do not sell tobacco products to minors.  This                      
  would give communities the clout they need to enforce these                  
  laws.                                                                        
       I thank you, again, for allowing me to testify.  Thank                  
  you.                                                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you very much.  Are there any                        
  questions?                                                                   
       Senator Taylor.                                                         
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  No questions.  I just wanted to state that                  
  my office already has refiled the bill that you were                         
  referring to.  We changed the law concerning possession by                   
  consumption.                                                                 
       It's been a problem in that the courts have failed to                   
  recognize that a young person having alcohol in their system                 
  may be (indiscernible) in possession.  That is the                           
  consequence is we're having to change what "in possession"                   
  means (indiscernible) handle the situation.                                  
       Hopefully, that bill will (indiscernible).                              
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you.  If I could ask one more here                   
  in Ketchikan before we move on.                                              
       Tom Coyne?                                                              
                                                                               
  MR. TOM COYNE:  Good afternoon.  My name is Tom Coyne. I've                  
  been a recovering addict for 37 years.  I've been involved                   
  in alcoholism programs since I'm about 35.  Now I'm speaking                 
  from observation locally.  I was employed in a local program                 
  for 13 years.  And I feel that if the state office runs                      
  everything in the state like they do in Ketchikan...  It's                   
  just a self-perpetuating agency.                                             
       In other words, they come in locally and just give the                  
  program to whoever will take it.  They don't investigate                     
  anything.  They just give it to the local agency to take it,                 
  which is the city.                                                           
       Now, they are 25 years behind the time.  The state of                   
  Washington will not allow alcoholism programs to be                          
  affiliated in anyway with mental health programs.  Now, here                 
  locally, the boss of the alcoholism program is a mental                      
  health agency.                                                               
       So, that's what I mean by a self-perpetuating agency.                   
  From Juneau.  They're not too concerned with getting the                     
  best type of program.  They aren't concerned with getting                    
  the alcoholism program away from mental health.  They're                     
  increasing the funding so it'll never leave mental health                    
  and it'll be the same type of program that you'll find here.                 
       I assume, and like I say, when I was employed there,                    
  seven of the ten of the people that came into the alcoholism                 
  program were from the courts.  From the courts.  And you                     
  don't have to have a very good program to have people                        
  ciphered in from the courts because you already control --                   
  as in Ketchikan -- you already control the referral agency                   
  which should be separate.  But in Ketchikan it's part of the                 
  program.                                                                     
       So, the only place that the referral agencies refer to                  
  are the self-perpetuating programs that the state has                        
  established here.  So, you people have to have a good look                   
  at this program, because the state, when they come down and                  
  audit the program, they tell this program three or four                      
  weeks in advance we're coming down a certain date to audit                   
  you.  Well, that isn't really an audit.  They're going to                    
  get everything in order.                                                     
       So, actually in 20 years I don't think the local                        
  programs have been audited.  Other than saying, hey, get                     
  your things we're coming down.  So, you've got to look at                    
  this local programs and see what they're doing.  See?                        
       If you want court programs you should establish                         
  separate court programs and then separate programs for                       
  voluntary or even involuntary people that have the problem.                  
  If you keep this type of system up that you have in                          
  Ketchikan under the guidance of the Mental Health, you're                    
  not really attacking the alcoholism program.  You're just                    
  being a convenience for the court system and you're nothing                  
  but a jail annex when you're talking about treatment centers                 
  or halfway houses.                                                           
       You've got to take a good look at these programs and                    
  get them into the private hands.  You know.  And most of the                 
  city programs should be privatized, because Mental Health is                 
  going to hold on to this program for dear life, because                      
  that's part of their referral system.                                        
       If you're not an alcoholic, when you're referred from                   
  the court to this program, they're going to make one of two                  
  things.  They're either going to make you an alcoholic or a                  
  drug addict or they're going to make you a nut.  So.                         
       There's no way a guy could get out.  He's stuck.  And                   
  it's supposed to be a program for the indigent?  You don't                   
  take indigents to court.  This program does.  You don't take                 
  the permanent fund of indigents.  This program does.                         
       So, that's what I mean by a self-perpetuating agency.                   
       Thank you.                                                              
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you, Tom.                                            
       One of the things that this Task Force has in it's                      
  folder of existing information, and it came up in Nome and                   
  I'm sure will come up here, you indirectly mentioned was the                 
  method upon which programs are valued.  Is the program                       
  self-perpetuating, does it measure how many people it                        
  touches or how many people, who as a result of the program                   
  have changed their negative drinking habits?                                 
       I think those kinds of evaluations are going to be ones                 
  that the state will be looking in the future at rather than                  
  how many people have come through the door.  That is one of                  
  the things that's already being worked.                                      
       Okay.  If I could, I'd like to go to Craig and ask if                   
  Gay Medina is available to testify?                                          
                                                                               
  MS. GAY MEDINA:  Yes, I am.                                                  
       I would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the chance                 
  to testify.  In some respects in answering Mr. Coyne, COHO                   
  is also a co-located mental health and substance program.                    
  Mental health is in no way our (indiscernible) and we are a                  
  separate and equal entity part of that agency.  And we find                  
  it very helpful to work with mental health, particularly for                 
  those clients who are duly diagnosed.                                        
       I would like to encourage the legislature to support                    
  the funding that we have.  It certainly is not enough in                     
  terms of the numbers that we have to serve, nor is it enough                 
  in terms of the miles that we have to cover.  As Loren                       
  mentioned, we have several communities on Prince of Wales.                   
  We have 2-1/2 counselors and this is not enough people or                    
  enough time to get to all the communities to offer                           
  treatment.                                                                   
       As the funding is set up, I feel that COHO gets... that                 
  it is equitably distributed among the program and I have no                  
  problem with (indiscernible) doing on it.  I think they have                 
  been very supportive of the program and I appreciate that.                   
       I would like to encourage the legislature to pass the                   
  legislation on the minor consumption, recognizing that any                   
  alcohol by consumption is illegal.  And I would also like to                 
  encourage the legislature to look at the involuntary                         
  procedures.  We are particularly hurt by this in Craig or on                 
  Prince of Wales because we have a superior court once a                      
  month.                                                                       
       So, what we need is a system that is easier to do                       
  involuntary commitment.                                                      
       (Off record)                                                            
       (Tape Change)                                                           
                                                                               
  TAPE I - SIDE B                                                              
       (On record)                                                             
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Let me do this.  I'm told that my voice is                 
  fading in and out so I'll try to speak louder.                               
       We have someone here in Ketchikan that would like to                    
  testify now, as he's got an appointment.  Could we ask Jim                   
  Elkins to come forward?                                                      
                                                                               
  MR. JIM ELKINS:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it's a pleasure to                 
  speak today.                                                                 
       I'm Jim Elkins and I'm representing (indiscernible) and                 
  we are part of the liquor (indiscernible) industry in the                    
  state of Alaska.                                                             
       And I would say to you, having been involved in the                     
  second generation, that the liquor industry has come a long                  
  way in helping and helping ourselves in how alcohol is                       
  consumed in the state of Alaska the last 20 years.  It has                   
  changed greatly.  You know, we have been -- we were                          
  instrumental in getting the six-pack bill passed.  The happy                 
  hour bill we supported.  Most of the DWI bills we have                       
  supported adamantly.  We have tried for two years to get                     
  where a minor would lose his driver's license if he consumed                 
  any alcohol and even if he got consuming alcohol before he                   
  got a driver's license, he would be unable to get one.                       
       The legislature's been, you know, unwilling to pass                     
  that for some reason.  We've had bills drawn up that we                      
  couldn't get introduced.  But, I think that's a step in the                  
  right direction.                                                             
       I would strongly urge that the state never give up                      
  their power to hold the authority on taxation over liquor.                   
  You're the licensing agent, I think, going along with being                  
  the licensed agent, that is your responsibility.                             
       Now, not the local municipalities.  We are strong                       
  supporters as an industry of local option having to do with                  
  wet and dry and hours.  But, from an (indiscernible)                         
  standpoint, we think as a licensing agent the responsibility                 
  for taxation lies with the State of Alaska.  Because it                      
  keeps continuity -- we think of taxation and keeping                         
  continuity within the State of Alaska.  You wouldn't have a                  
  high tax here and somebody buying and (indiscernible) and                    
  shipping down here, for example.  Which could exist if you                   
  didn't levy the same tax....                                                 
       Another thing I would like to speak on, as the                          
  licensing agent for the State of Alaska, the legislature                     
  adopts all kinds of regulations.  And I happen to be a                       
  member of the ABC Board, also, and we've just been holding                   
  public hearings on how to save the agency money and some at                  
  your direction.  But, like a lot of bills that the                           
  legislature introduces they -- after a while, forget --                      
  implement those regulations and the laws that you've written                 
  we need to have funding to do that.                                          
       The ABC Board now enforcement division is at a lower                    
  status today than it was in prior pipeline.  The last                        
  legislative audit said they should go eight to ten                           
  investigators, we've gone to four.                                           
       You know, it's hard -- we see things in the industry                    
  we'd like to correct.  We had a (indiscernible) convention                   
  and took testimony from CHAR (ph) members, things that they                  
  know is going on in the industry because not everybody cares                 
  what kind of industry we have out there, but a lot of us do.                 
       And I would encourage you if you want to stop minors                    
  being able to purchase alcohol we need to have investigators                 
  that can do the job.  The state police don't have the time                   
  and the local people don't either, the local enforcement.                    
  The agency generates around 2. million dollars.  Half of                     
  that goes back to the municipalities in the form of the                      
  rebate for the licensing fee.  They need about 7 - 800,000                   
  to run the agency and we got four.  You know, that's at the                  
  level of six investigators.                                                  
       So, the quality of the industry that you have mandated                  
  is not being achieved by the industry partly because the                     
  enforcement you have, you know, there's bad apples in every                  
  case, you know.  And if you don't have people out there to                   
  fine them and enforce them, it's not healthy.                                
       And I think -- the state needs to look at funding the                   
  agency closer to what it takes to operate it at a good                       
  level.                                                                       
       I don't have any questions.  I'm pleased to see you                     
  doing this and I can remember years ago when Glen was in the                 
  legislature we always enjoyed going head on head with him.                   
  He never voted with us, but he was a gentleman to do                         
  business with and I just want to say Hi, Glenn.                              
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Question, Representative Mulder?                           
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.                             
       I appreciate you testifying, Jim.  I know nationally                    
  there are a lot of programs going on through the alcohol                     
  industry in relation to educational programs within the                      
  schools and within the communities.                                          
       Has the ABC Board looked at any of those programs and                   
  try to adopt some of them for Alaska or fine tune them to                    
  make them applicable up here?                                                
                                                                               
  MR. ELKINS:  There's a program, and I think it's still                       
  around and I'm not sure if Ketchikan has one, but there were                 
  a number of communities in the state, K-12, enough's enough,                 
  that the Alaska state (indiscernible) bought and put it's                    
  school districts around the state.  That's been back                         
  probably 15 years ago.                                                       
       And if I remember right, in this district that was                      
  turned down.  They would not accept it because it was from                   
  the liquor industry.  And I could be wrong on that, but it                   
  goes back a while, but we had raffles all around the state                   
  because it was about an $8,000.00 program and you know,                      
  enough was enough.  It was substance abuse.  Too much, you                   
  know, as far as that goes, too much noise is too much.                       
       And so, yes, they have.                                                 
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Well, I commend you on that and I                    
  think it's very important that as we've seen government                      
  attempting to gain control of it's purse strings that we've                  
  got to look at all avenues of cooperation.  I mean, that                     
  comes not only from the health organizations and from those                  
  treating the alcoholics, but also from the liquor industry.                  
       You know, I think there -- as I've viewed my own                        
  community and we've worked with this problem in East                         
  Anchorage, I find that mostly, you know, you have a couple                   
  of bad apples, but mostly they're pretty good people and                     
  they're trying to clean up their industry and clean up their                 
  act and that's real important.                                               
       And I find that as long as we maintain a healthy                        
  atmosphere it really promotes it and I would really                          
  encourage the ABC Board to look at new programs and new ways                 
  that are being worked in the Lower 48 and try and bring them                 
  into Alaska and adapt them.                                                  
       I would like to say one thing.  Two more things.                        
       One, this year we have retired five licenses in this                    
  state. Now that's not very many.  On the Attorney General's                  
  recommendation we just reinstated two of those at the last                   
  meeting.  But, they were bad apple operators and bad                         
  license, had bad records and we just, you know, out of 1800                  
  to do away with five in one year or now it ended up being                    
  three, but that was on the advice of the Attorney General                    
  that we reinstate two them.                                                  
       The Board is working and on the three we have -- all                    
  three have been to court and the court has upheld us on all                  
  of them, so we were right in that (indiscernible)....                        
       The other thing I wanted to say, I'm one of the                         
  original incorporators of the program in Ketchikan.  And I                   
  think what Tom didn't say about the Ketchikan program was                    
  that Ketchikan used to have a model program and everybody in                 
  the state of Alaska used to come and look at it.  And it was                 
  run basically -- I think it's 12 points -- the AA program,                   
  and we had a lot of success rates and there's people in this                 
  town today that haven't taken a drink that went through that                 
  program then.                                                                
       And I think an evaluation of programs throughout the                    
  state will save the state money and will get higher quality                  
  of programs, because court mandated alcohol treatment.  The                  
  success rate is way down.  And I don't care.  You can talk                   
  to anybody that mandated programs -- you know, you've got to                 
  give people the tools to say, yes, I want to help myself and                 
  get in there and get the job done.                                           
       Thank you.                                                              
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you.  Okay.  If we could go now to                   
  Sitka and see if Curt Ledford to testify?                                    
                                                                               
  MR. CURT LEDFORD:  No, I'm not ready at this time, but there                 
  is someone else here that is.                                                
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Well, why don't we have that person come                   
  forward and get his name and welcome and please testify.                     
                                                                               
  MS. KRISANNE RICE:  Yes, this is Krisanne Rice and I'm the                   
  director of the Sitka Alliance for Health.  We are one of                    
  the five CSAP's, Center for Substance Abuse Prevention,                      
  demonstration projects in the state.  There's one in Sitka,                  
  Anchorage, Minto, St. Mary's and Nome, which covers the                      
  Bering Strait area.                                                          
       I just wanted to highlight a couple of different                        
  things.  One, that there is a significant amount of money                    
  coming in through these partnership efforts.  All of us are                  
  beginning pretty much our third year of our five-year                        
  program.  The emphasis of these are to support local                         
  communities and local community initiatives in the area of                   
  substance abuse prevention.   The emphasis is also on trying                 
  and there's no easy task.  I'm sure you can all appreciate                   
  getting agencies not only within a local community but on a                  
  state and federal agency to truly work together by sharing                   
  resources and to improve their planning process.                             
       The other thing I'd like to mention is that there is                    
  one program which is beginning it's third year in Hoonah                     
  which was headed by Search.  They received a funding from                    
  the Indian Health Services.  It's called PACH, the Planned                   
  Approach to Community Health.  This has received statewide                   
  and national recognition.  The process is a community                        
  development process where a local community group organizes                  
  their community, specific health data regarding prevention                   
  is gathered, that group plans interventions, implements them                 
  and then they are evaluated.                                                 
       The state currently right now -- the health promotion                   
  branch, Search, the Alliance and CDC -- are looking at                       
  joining our resources to replicate this effort in six                        
  communities in Southeast.  And then hopefully throughout the                 
  state.                                                                       
       And finally, just to encourage people, the emphasis                     
  always seemed that agencies had to fix the problems                          
  associated with substance abuse, but really the                              
  responsibility needs to be shifted back towards communities                  
  and towards effective cooperative efforts among different                    
  sectors of the community which include schools, the media,                   
  education, religious communities, health and human service                   
  agencies, etc.                                                               
       Thank you.                                                              
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you very much, Chris Ann.                            
       Are you aware of any written description of the PACH                    
  program that we might be able to lay our hands on?                           
                                                                               
  MS. RICE:  Yes, I can most certainly put you in contact with                 
  the person who's coordinating that.  There's lots that have                  
  been put out about that.                                                     
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  That would be great.  We'll be back in the                 
  office next week.  If we could get a card or something with                  
  that, then we'll try to obtain it.  Thank you, very much.                    
       If we go now go to Petersburg and ask if Dick Hindman                   
  is available?                                                                
                                                                               
  MR. DICK HINDMAN:  Good afternoon.  This is Dick Hindman,                    
  I'm the director of the Peters (indiscernible) and                           
  Alcoholism and other drug abuse.  Can you hear me alright?                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Just fine, Dick.                                           
                                                                               
  MR. HINDMAN:  Can you hear me?                                               
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Just fine.  Can you hear me?                               
                                                                               
  MR. HINDMAN:  That's right.  I'm really happy to be able to                  
  testify, but before I get into what I really have to say let                 
  me talk a little bit about the program here in Petersburg.                   
       The Council on Alcoholism was established back in 1972.                 
  Original location was in a liquor warehouse with blankets                    
  separating the clients from the booze.  So, we've made a lot                 
  of progress in location of the program.                                      
       Then at times several changes have happened in                          
  Petersburg including the start up of a youth program funded                  
  primarily for prevention activities, and things have gone                    
  along quite well up until 1992.                                              
       At that time, the end of fiscal 1992, the youth program                 
  was defunded because of lack of funds.  And a lot of those                   
  prevention responsibilities were added to the Council on                     
  Alcoholism.                                                                  
       In fiscal year 1982 we had a total of $138,000.00 state                 
  money coming into the community for alcohol and drug abuse.                  
       With the new funding of the youth program the total                     
  amount of money's coming into Petersburg was reduced to                      
  $120,000.00 for fiscal year '93 and for fiscal year '94 it's                 
  been reduced another 1,000 to about $119,000.00.                             
       I raised a lot of money locally to help with the                        
  program and I have a budget of about $165,000.00 for a                       
  community this size.  Under my direction, and with the                       
  guidance of a board of directors, the Petersburg Council on                  
  Alcoholism has changed and grown from a community based drop                 
  in center where guys used to come in to detox and just kill                  
  time till they could get back on the streets to a state                      
  approved out patient treatment program providing after care                  
  services.  We do prevention services and information and                     
  referral services.                                                           
       We presently have a staff of four full time employees.                  
  That's a large amount for a community this size.  I have a                   
  full time adult counselor, a half time school based                          
  prevention specialist and an adolescent counselor and                        
  prevention specialist.                                                       
       We offer a 12-week out patient program.  It includes a                  
  minimum of two therapy groups a week and one individual                      
  counselling session each week for each client.  After that                   
  we offer 12-week after care or relapse prevention program                    
  for each client.  After that we include a six-month follow                   
  up to keep track of our clients.                                             
       When clients are not appropriate for out patient                        
  treatment we refer them to an in patient treatment program                   
  in the state, preferably, and if beds are not available                      
  we'll send them out of state.                                                
       I could talk on and on about what we do.  We have                       
  prevention activities going on in the school.  Our school                    
  based prevention specialist teaches a "Here's Looking at                     
  You" curriculum in the elementary school.  Our adolescent                    
  counselor teaches the ALERT project in the middle school and                 
  works with the natural helpers in health education classes                   
  in the high school.                                                          
       This last quarter or the first quarter of this fiscal                   
  year we have served 38 clients in our out patient program.                   
  86% of these clients have alcohol as a primary problem and                   
  about 78% are involved with the legal system.  62% are                       
  Caucasian, 47% are Alaska Native, and 11% are of Hispanic                    
  decent.  And these statistics have been about the same                       
  during the past several years.                                               
       We have recently completed an informal study of 327                     
  prior clients.  Okay?  I've got some good news for you.  303                 
  of these clients are still living, 24 of them are deceased.                  
  192 live in Petersburg, 76 live in other parts of Alaska and                 
  35 in other states.  Out of these clients 172 were court                     
  referrals, 93 were self referrals and 38 were referred from                  
  other sources.                                                               
       The primary (indiscernible) for most of them was                        
  alcohol seconded by marijuana and then cocaine and almost                    
  all of them were polydrug addicted.  Of these 303 people 98                  
  now have 1 to 13 years of sobriety.  36 have from 1 to 11                    
  months of sobriety.                                                          
       I think our system is working.  I think that it's                       
  probably more evident in a smaller community than it might                   
  be in a larger community, but it does work.  I believe that                  
  the current system, the competitive grant system that ADA                    
  monitors, is a fair and equitable way to run this business.                  
       I think you folks on the Task Force need to look at the                 
  level of funding provided for programs for ADA.  Okay,                       
  instead of looking at ways to save money or decrease our                     
  funding we need to look at ways to increase.                                 
       You know most of the folks in this field are pretty                     
  sincere and dedicated.  Most of the folks in this field are                  
  certainly underpaid.  But, if we are to continue to increase                 
  our services, if we need to provide further information,                     
  like outcome studies, then we need to look at other sources                  
  for funding.                                                                 
       One of the ways I would urge you to look at this is for                 
  some additional taxes on alcohol.  If you have any questions                 
  for me, I would be glad to answer them.                                      
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Dick, thank you very much.                                 
       One question that comes to mind.  You seem to have a                    
  good handle on your evaluation yourself of your own program                  
  in terms of where your graduates are and how they are doing.                 
       Is that difficult for you to do on those that are                       
  outside of Petersburg within the state or outside of the                     
  state?                                                                       
                                                                               
  MR. HINDMAN:  It is very time consuming and sometimes it's                   
  hard.  The ones that we've been able to determine on out of                  
  state are those that we know personally and have kept in                     
  contact with personally.  If you do an outcome study it's                    
  going to require a lot of time and a lot of money.                           
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Right.  Thank you very much.                               
       Representative Mulder?                                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.                             
       Dick, you made a comment about the two recent years                     
  legislation looking over your shoulder, looking at how we                    
  can cut the budget of ADA, but I hastily remind you that the                 
  purpose of the committee isn't just to look at ways and                      
  means that we can cut the budget, but it's to provide some                   
  oversight.  I think we'd be negligent in our                                 
  responsibilities as legislators to evaluate programs.  We                    
  not only fund them, but we also have to evaluate them.  Try                  
  to judge what are we dong right, what are we dong wrong.                     
       And the only way we can really do that is to get out                    
  here in the communities and talk to you people, have you                     
  give us suggestions, tell us what you think is happening out                 
  there.  What things are going right in your industry and                     
  your business and what things aren't.                                        
       This is also the conclusion of the Ombudsman in the                     
  recent Ombudsman study that said there's too oversight of                    
  ADA in evaluation.  So, we are attempting to provide some of                 
  that function.                                                               
       So, I wouldn't be as defensive as much as it is from                    
  our viewpoint we're trying to work with you to try to better                 
  understand the problems and to come to some solutions.                       
       We recognize the financial problems.                                    
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  I'll just feel required to add that we're                  
  not looking for ways to cut the budget, but Prudhoe Bay                      
  productions is doing it for us.                                              
       In any event, let's go on, and if I could return to                     
  Craig and ask if Sonny Anderson is available?                                
                                                                               
  MS. SONNY ANDERSON:  Yes, I am.  And thank you.  I                           
  appreciate the opportunity to give some input.                               
       I have a couple of things.  One, I think residential                    
  treatment is (indiscernible) point.  And the problems that                   
  COHO has with that are, I think, typical throughout the                      
  state.  And it's the inability to secure residential                         
  treatment due to long waiting lists.  And by those long                      
  waiting lists sometimes the people on the islands do not                     
  receive the level of care that they need and it does lessen                  
  the outcome of what you would call hopefully a good outcome                  
  of a treatment program.                                                      
       And they say we're losing people out there.  I think                    
  part of this has to do with the fact they are on a long                      
  waiting list.  In Petersburg we do (indiscernible -                          
  ringing).                                                                    
       Also, I think the prohibition on communities imposing                   
  the alcohol tax locally helps to reduce the ability of the                   
  communities to limit the alcohol consumption and the ability                 
  to respond to the costs to the community which is associated                 
  with alcohol and abuse.                                                      
       These costs include treatment in the prevention                         
  services.  They also include police services, protection and                 
  maintenance and repair cost to the community and the other                   
  help in doing services (indiscernible) and this has a great                  
  impact on the health and well being of the total community.                  
  I would also like to comment on the fact that comments were                  
  made on the mental health agency being associated with                       
  substance abuse.  I am certainly in support of the way that                  
  COHO works with our alcohol agency and entities.  And I                      
  think this works very well as Gay (indiscernible) has                        
  already testified to and I really encourage that to                          
  continue.                                                                    
       I also support the fact that I think the legislature                    
  should look at the fact that any alcohol consumption by                      
  teenagers is too much.  And I really encourage the                           
  legislature to look at all these things that are being                       
  testified on today and I thank you for allowing me to                        
  testify.                                                                     
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you very much, Sonny.  I don't see                   
  any questions.  So, if I could return here to Ketchikan and                  
  ask if Jean Book can come forward?                                           
                                                                               
  MS. JEANNE BOOK:  Representative Porter, Members of the Task                 
  Force and Senator Taylor.                                                    
       My name is Jeanne Book, I'm the Director of Gateway                     
  Center for Human Services here in Ketchikan.  Gateway                        
  provides a variety of treatment services for adults who                      
  abuse alcohol and other drugs and for their families.                        
       I'll limit my remarks to four areas, although there are                 
  surely other areas of comment and you've already heard some                  
  of them.                                                                     
       The first area is about the laws governing involuntary                  
  treatment for alcoholism.  To be brief, they don't work.                     
  The process is cumbersome and basically it achieves no                       
  purpose once it's done.                                                      
       In many states the process for evaluation for                           
  involuntary treatment for alcoholism is (indiscernible) to                   
  the mental health statute.  In two other states where I                      
  worked, that worked there very well.                                         
       Currently the mental health statutes are misused for                    
  the assessment of people with alcohol problems.  What                        
  happens then is, if indeed, they go through the process and                  
  you get the commitment they go off to API which has no                       
  alcohol treatment program.  Psychiatric treatment                            
  facilities.  So, true they're off the street for a few days,                 
  sometimes a very few, but they don't get the treatment they                  
  need and the resources at API are used inappropriately.  So,                 
  there's a problem there.                                                     
       The statute also applies only to alcoholism, not to                     
  drug abuse and if revised should apply to both.  I'd like to                 
  make it clear that I'm not anticipating or advocating that                   
  every person abuses alcohol or drugs be forced into                          
  treatment.  I'm talking about the people who are killing                     
  themselves and are potentially killing other people and are                  
  the revolving door to hospitals and jails.  And they just                    
  literally go around through that process, sometimes several                  
  times a month and we have nothing that we can do with them.                  
       The second thing that I want to comment on is closely                   
  related to the first and that is, if we had adequate                         
  commitment laws, we don't have any place to commit them to.                  
  There is no locked or secured facility for alcoholism                        
  treatment in the state.       Once again, API's being used                   
  as maybe community respite care at best.  And that is                        
  inappropriate.                                                               
       The third area has to do with the absence of                            
  appropriate treatment programs for women who have the                        
  disease of alcoholism.  I would like for you to consider for                 
  a moment what it would be like if we had an array of                         
  services across the state that were designed for women and                   
  along came a man who needed treatment and we said, well, we                  
  have a treatment program here, though you be the only man in                 
  there you can go in there and it will be a fine treatment                    
  program.  It isn't a fine treatment program.  The needs of                   
  men and women in alcohol treatment are very different.  And                  
  we don't have very many treatment programs for women.                        
       Here in Ketchikan we do have women in our residential                   
  program, frequently by court order.  It's not appropriate to                 
  try to individualize it as much as possible, but it's just                   
  simply not recommended.                                                      
       The fourth thing I'd like to comment on is the                          
  Ombudsman report on grant funded programs.  While it's quite                 
  true that there is very little hard evidence that programs                   
  are efficient or effective, the implication that this                        
  situation is in omission that can be easily fixed is quite                   
  erroneous.  I worked for a number of years in the field of                   
  program evaluation and the measurement part is fairly easy.                  
  Deciding what to measure is a very difficult thing.  What                    
  are the outcomes that are anticipated from alcohol programs.                 
  How do you measure those in terms of what goes in and all                    
  the other things that impact on a, for instance, one of the                  
  things that's often used down south for outcome measure is                   
  employment.                                                                  
       Well, if you are in a community that has no employment                  
  that measure doesn't measure much.  What you come out with                   
  is, well, this person went through treatment and they're not                 
  employed, therefore it's a bad program when in truth other                   
  factors are impinging upon that.                                             
       We don't have any federal grants now so I don't keep up                 
  on that, but at one time required that 15% of the grant                      
  budget be used for evaluation.  In fact, more years than I                   
  care to remember when I first started it was 5%.  But, as                    
  you know, things change.  15% is a lot of money when you                     
  look at the total grant program in Alaska.                                   
       So, basically I would like to make four                                 
  recommendations.  One is revise the commitment statutes.                     
       Second is develop regional facilities for substance                     
  abusers who are so far into the disease that they're greatly                 
  disabled.  And I emphasize regional facilities.  You need to                 
  treat people as close to home and in their families as much                  
  as we possibly can.                                                          
       The third is recognize the need and plan for adequate                   
  treatment programs for women.                                                
       And the fourth is to fund pilot evaluation programs to                  
  look at what works rather than collect a room full of data                   
  that is uninterpretable.  Either because of the volume of                    
  the data.  If you collect it on everybody who goes through                   
  the system or because the quality of the data is unreliable.                 
       Thank you for your time.                                                
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you for your organized presentation.                 
       When you say program, or pilot evaluation, do you mean                  
  selective -- a program, or just a few programs?                              
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  A program or a community, but something that's                    
  contained.  Because a program in Ketchikan is different from                 
  a program in Nome.  And if you use the same model you're                     
  assuming the same input in terms of the people who go                        
  through the program and they are very, very different.  You                  
  get garbage when you come out.                                               
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Could you expand on the states that you                    
  worked in that had statutes that apparently worked superior                  
  to ours?  What did they provide?  Or what did they allow                     
  that we don't?                                                               
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  California statute for alcohol and drug abuse is                  
  exactly parallel to the mental health statute for                            
  involuntary treatment and the Alaska statute, mental health                  
  statute is approximately parallel to the California statute.                 
  The same thing is true in Illinois.  There are some minor                    
  variations.                                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  What did that bring to your ability --                     
  that we don't have here?                                                     
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  Well, absent the resources, nothing.  But, I                      
  don't think the resources really would be that big a problem                 
  if we had the ability to do it in the first place.  We have                  
  people on the street who literally are in the hospital with                  
  serious life threatening physical conditions caused by                       
  alcohol that come back out and may come through our program                  
  for the detox part of it or something or other and are back                  
  out on the street.                                                           
       Again, life threatening situations.  We don't have any                  
  legal way to force those people into treatment and, as I                     
  said, we don't have any secured facilities to send them to.                  
  But, we might be able to keep some of them in our program if                 
  the law were in place that would allow us to do that.                        
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you.                                                 
       Representative Mulder?                                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.                             
       Your last point's a real interesting one, Jean, because                 
  it forces us, the legislators, to walk a tight rope.                         
  Because on one hand, you know, we're all fairly -- most                      
  people in this state are fairly conservative and they don't                  
  want government to be too big.  They don't want big brother                  
  looking over their shoulder knowing too much and having too                  
  much ability or control over him.                                            
       But, on the other hand you -- you know, you recognize                   
  the problem of a person out there in the community who is a                  
  danger not only to themselves, but to his neighbors.  And                    
  we've all had experiences in one shape, form or another.                     
       So, any recommendations you can make along those lines                  
  about involuntary commitment would be appreciated.  I'm not                  
  certain exactly where you're focused, but any suggestions or                 
  recommendations would be appreciated.                                        
       The real question I had related to the success of court                 
  mandated treatment, has there ever been any evaluation done?                 
  Maybe somebody in Loren's shop listening by teleconference                   
  has any kind of summary -- the questions never been asked                    
  before and I think it's applicable.                                          
       What kind of success rate do we have, if any, or has                    
  there been any evaluation in relation to court appointed or                  
  mandated treatment?                                                          
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  I don't know of any specifically.  I suspect that                 
  it has more to do with how far along the person is in the                    
  disease of alcoholism than it does whether they come from                    
  the court or someplace else.                                                 
       If someone, for instance, is sent to the program                        
  because they've been arrested for the first time while                       
  driving intoxicated, the chances of success are a whole lot                  
  better than somebody who's been through the court system a                   
  dozen times.  So, it isn't the fact that they're court                       
  committed, it's where they are in the disease process.                       
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Good point.                                                
       Senator Taylor?                                                         
       I have one.  You've mentioned the disease process a                     
  couple of times and we've had testimony, or I think we've                    
  had written testimony, that described our state's treatment                  
  generally is based on a disease model as opposed to some                     
  other model.                                                                 
       Could you give us an executive summary of what a                        
  disease model treatment program is?  And what the other one                  
  is?                                                                          
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  Well, the first part's easier.  The disease                       
  model, whatever you call it, implies that there's a point                    
  with alcohol abuse where the alcohol takes over.  A person                   
  no longer can exercise the choice whether or not to use that                 
  drug.  Under the influence is the normal state of being and                  
  we all want to be at a normal state of being.  And that in a                 
  nutshell, I expect my colleague to tell me that that wasn't                  
  a very scientific explanation, but that's.....                               
       Other treatment models -- there aren't any really well                  
  established ones.  There was an argument for years about                     
  whether alcoholism was a psychiatric illness or, you know, a                 
  failure of will, so to speak.  Well, I don't know that                       
  anybody accepts a failure of will anymore.  There certainly                  
  are people who use alcohol to give relief to psychiatric                     
  problems, but that's not the majority of people we're                        
  talking about and even if that is the case, if they use                      
  alcohol long enough there's a chance they will be addicted.                  
       And there is an off shoot that says people that are                     
  addicted to alcohol can come back and drink moderately.  I                   
  don't know.  If you've ever been on a diet, you lose the                     
  weight and the first thing you know, well, I can have a                      
  piece of chocolate cake.  Then I can have something else.                    
  And you know what happens?                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  I did that with smoking, yeah.                             
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  Well, there isn't scientific evidence that I know                 
  of in the literature that works any other treatment program                  
  (indiscernible)... success rates not good in any treatment                   
  program.                                                                     
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Senator Taylor?                                            
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.                              
       Doctor, I would appreciate it if you would be willing                   
  to work with Joy Ambrose (ph) on my staff.  She'll be back                   
  from vacation here in a couple of days.  We'd be happy to                    
  sit down with you and start drafting some changes, because I                 
  too have been concerned a long time about the commitment                     
  laws.  They are archaic and they do not work.  And they take                 
  a horrible amount of energy and time.                                        
       God Bless on behalf of the people who do go through it.                 
  Public Advocacy programs are the only ones really doing it                   
  and it's a very, very torturous process (indiscernible) and                  
  it really doesn't' have to be.                                               
       I know there are more expedited procedures in other                     
  states and I would like......                                                
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  I had talked to Loren Jones about this and it is                  
  something that I understand the alcohol advisory board is                    
  interested in as well.                                                       
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  I just think their plate gets kind of full                  
  and I would be willing to do that.  We may not get it                        
  accomplished this session, but at least we ought to get it                   
  off the ground and have it up for discussion this year in                    
  the Judiciary (indiscernible).                                               
       The other thing I'd like your comments on and maybe you                 
  can't do that today, but if you can't get back to the                        
  committee at least get back to me on it, if you could.  I                    
  know it sounds (indiscernible), but it's something that I                    
  found worked as a judge and that's (indiscernible).                          
       And everybody seems to run away from it like it's                       
  something fearful thing up there when we have people a                       
  threat to themselves or others and often times finding                       
  themselves in a life threatening situation.  I usually used                  
  that as my criteria as a judge as to whether or not I would                  
  order it.  But, if I found the individual had placed                         
  themselves in a life threatening situation I'd stick 90 days                 
  over their heads and give them (indiscernible) abuse                         
  treatment program for a year and you know, they were out of                  
  jail and they stayed sober and they held their job down and                  
  they didn't beat up on their wife or burn down a house for a                 
  whole year.                                                                  
       The day after the program went off that's when they                     
  went out and did the same things again.                                      
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  Didn't know (indiscernible) prevented all of                      
  those things.                                                                
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  If you keep them sober it does.                             
       But, the reason I'm asking is because I know now they                   
  have a time release antiabuse (ph) that can be inserted                      
  surgically and it's good for six months.  The only reason we                 
  didn't do it before was because it was horribly time                         
  consuming and very difficult to monitor.                                     
       You had to have this person show up off of a                            
  construction job every day at the alcohol center to take his                 
  pill.  Yeah.  It just takes forever, somebody's got to be                    
  babysitting them constantly, where this time release stuff                   
  is good for at least six months.                                             
       I keep thinking of the fetal alcohol syndrome babies                    
  that wouldn't be in that problem right now if we'd have gone                 
  in with public health and said, lady, you've got a major                     
  problem here.  Either get inserted with antiabuse or we're                   
  going to literally lock you up and make sure you get good                    
  prenatal care, because we ain't going to spend 2 million                     
  bucks on your kid.                                                           
       You know one lady (indiscernible) over a million.  But,                 
  maybe you could respond back to that.  A little now, if you                  
  can, and if you can't.....                                                   
                                                                               
  MS. BOOK:  I can't, but I certainly will see if I can find                   
  the information.                                                             
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  I would appreciate it.                                      
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you.                                                 
       I'm sure glad Senator Taylor came in today.  I was one                  
  I was thinking that we might have to take on and here he's                   
  going to do it.                                                              
       Now, if we could check back in with Craig and see if                    
  David Fisher is available?                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. DAVID FISHER:  Yes, sir, I am.  And I just have a couple                 
  of comments that I'd like to make.                                           
       One of the things talked about is the success rate for                  
  (indiscernible) same success rate of those who have come in                  
  voluntarily and we've found that to be true with COHO and I                  
  think typically that's (indiscernible).                                      
       The second thing that I would like to say is -- let me                  
  expand on chemical dependency treatment (indiscernible) --                   
  money in the long run in terms of what it cost the legal                     
  system and (indiscernible)...                                                
       Thirdly, it's been my experience that politicians seem                  
  to cut out a lot of (indiscernible).....  Alaska has a                       
  sincere problem with alcohol and drug abuse (indiscernible)                  
  important.  I believe that those people who have the ability                 
  to make those decision (indiscernible)....                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Okay.  Thank you very much.                                
       Is Daryl Campbell still available?  In Sitka?                           
       (Long pause)                                                            
       Looking for Daryl Campbell in Sitka.                                    
       (Pause)                                                                 
       Okay.  I'm looking for Sitka.  Are you on line?                         
       (Pause)                                                                 
       Well, we'll give it another shot.                                       
       I have an indication that there is a Tom Stock in                       
  Wrangell that would like to testify.                                         
       Can you hear us, Tom?                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. TOM STOCK:  Yes, I can.                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Well, great.  Let's hear from you.                         
                                                                               
  MR. STOCK:  I don't have too much more to add to what's                      
  already been presented by Dick and some of the other                         
  treatment presenters in the other communities.                               
       I am in favor of change for minors in consumption.                      
  Someone brought up the idea of reducing the BAL to .08.                      
  That's not a bad idea.                                                       
       Mr. Elkins talked about his line of business and I                      
  think that should be considered, you know, since most of the                 
  people we do see are arrested for DWI, usually coming home                   
  from some establishment where they've definitely consumed                    
  more than the law allows.                                                    
       And just to throw this out there, in that line of                       
  business educating bartenders, bar owners, about                             
  consumption, about amount, perhaps an alcohol information                    
  course before they're hired.  I don't know if that would                     
  change anything or not, but it would make them more aware,                   
  because eventually a client is going to get around to suing                  
  some business.  There's one going on right now in this                       
  community blaming places that sell -- overstiffing drinks                    
  and letting them drink too much, knowing that he was fully                   
  intoxicated when he left their agency.  That's just                          
  something that I would throw out there.                                      
       (Phone ringing)                                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Okay.  Tom, thank you.  Just for your                      
  information and those listening.  The alcohol server                         
  education course bill did pass this last -- this year.  I                    
  think Senator Kelly sponsored the bill and it requires the                   
  course or the one similar to the one you're describing for                   
  alcohol servers be required to obtained within the first few                 
  months, I believe, of employment.  And hopefully that will                   
  have the results that you indicate.  Instead of as I recall                  
  -- having been a law enforcement, quote, good old days when                  
  drunken public was a crime, you do have to have other people                 
  who recognize the problems, or at least the symptoms and                     
  recognize when impairment or intoxication is approaching.                    
       Senator Taylor?                                                         
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  Yeah, just one further note.  As the                        
  gentleman had mentioned, one of the reasons Mr. Elkins was                   
  talking about was he sponsored that movement here in the                     
  community of Ketchikan some years ago.  They've been                         
  involved with their (indiscernible) organization down here                   
  for a long time.  He was then successful in getting the CHAR                 
  organization to sponsor it and bring the legislation                         
  forward.  Senator Kelly introduced it and the organization                   
  very strongly supported it.                                                  
       (Off record)                                                            
       (Tape Change)                                                           
                                                                               
  TAPE II - SIDE A                                                             
       (On record)                                                             
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  I see Cecilia's back.                                      
       (Laughter)                                                              
       If we could have Cecelia Bird come forward.  Welcome.                   
                                                                               
  MS. CECELIA BIRD:  Thanks for the opportunity.                               
       I work for the Alaska Native Health Center as a social                  
  service provider.  I'm here to express my frustrations with                  
  our local substance abuse programs as they no longer offer                   
  involuntarily commitment as a service to the clinic.  Our                    
  clinic utilizes the service.                                                 
       The service was deleted in January of '93 when I was                    
  away attending Seattle University.  In June when I went back                 
  to work I questioned this move and proceeded to call                         
  appropriate agencies involved with involuntary commitments.                  
  The answer was, it was too much time and it was -- too much                  
  time was being spent and it was useless.  Because we don't                   
  have quote, closed treatment programs in Alaska.                             
       Although I agree with this move I state strongly it was                 
  premature move.  We would have like to have time to obtain                   
  our own attorney as right now we have five to six                            
  involuntaries that need to be committed but are having to                    
  suffer while we blunder around trying to get our own                         
  paperwork done so we can get our own attorney.                               
       I testify here because the attorney we are utilizing is                 
  the city attorney.                                                           
       So, I would like to testify on behalf of getting closed                 
  treatment programs in Alaska and Dr. Book did elaborate on                   
  that for you.                                                                
       And also, Representative Taylor, I have developed a                     
  great antiabuse protocol at Alaska Native Health Center                      
  which I use and utilize and I think it's a wonderful program                 
  and if anybody's interested they can come and see me and                     
  I'll show it to them.  And I like that time released                         
  antiabuse.  I think it's great.                                              
       Thank you.                                                              
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thank you.                                                 
       Let me try one more time to see if there's anyone in                    
  Sitka.  Sitka's off line?  Those of you in Sitka, you're not                 
  hearing me?                                                                  
       (Laughter).                                                             
                                                                               
  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Sitka is off line.                                    
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Okay.  I understand that there are a                       
  couple of people in Juneau that would like to talk to the                    
  Task Force.   Could I ask if Barbara Craver is available?                    
                                                                               
  MS. BARBARA CRAVER:  I am.  I'm here.                                        
       Sounds like a marine radio.  My name is Barbara Craver                  
  and I am here on behalf of the National Council and                          
  Alcoholism of Juneau.  I'm the president of their board and                  
  have been a member of their board for approximately six                      
  years.                                                                       
       My personal background is that I am an attorney                         
  licensed in Alaska for ten years and the past three years I                  
  have been employed by and still employed by the City and                     
  Borough of Juneau Law Department as assistant city attorney.                 
  Prior to that I was in private practice.                                     
       So, I have some background in my profession dealing                     
  with some of the topics that I've been hearing here today.                   
  But, first if I could do my little spiel on behalf of NCAJ.                  
       The NCAJ, which is National Council of Alcoholism here                  
  in Juneau, a local non-profit agency here in Juneau that                     
  receives funding from a variety of sources including from                    
  the Department of Health and Social Services Division of                     
  Alcoholism and Drug Abuse in grant and aid process.                          
       NCAJ has been in business here in Juneau since August                   
  of 1965 and our mission is a prevention agency.  It's to                     
  increase public awareness of all facets of alcohol and other                 
  drug abuse, alcoholism and other drug dependents, via                        
  programs of community information education intervention.                    
  No treatment at all.                                                         
       I am testifying today on behalf of NCAJ in order to                     
  share information on two public policy issues that the                       
  legislature might consider in view of your alcohol Task                      
  Force.                                                                       
       And those are, we are asking for revisions in the                       
  statute regarding minor consuming and revisions in the                       
  statute regarding involuntary commitment.  And these are two                 
  ends of the continuum.  Minor consumers of the very                          
  beginning of age and involuntary commitment being                            
  (indiscernible) age and also continuum in the abuse of                       
  alcohol.  And thus when all else is failed.                                  
       Here in Juneau three years ago the Juneau Assembly                      
  established a minor consuming task force which worked on the                 
  issue of minor consuming for 10 months and then issued a                     
  report containing a series of recommendations including                      
  mandatory assessment and referral services for minor                         
  consuming offenders under the age of 18.                                     
       And there already has been mandatory assessment and                     
  referral through the ASAP program for those 18 to 21.  And                   
  it also included mandatory community service.                                
       The City and Borough of Juneau two years ago in part                    
  through state funds contracted with our agency, ACAJ, to                     
  provide the assessment referral in monitoring of community                   
  work service.  124 adolescents were screened and referred                    
  during the first two years.                                                  
       The majority of those successfully completed their                      
  education or treatment assignment and the ACAJ is in the                     
  process of doing follow up study and early results indicate                  
  a small recidivism rate.                                                     
       Regarding minor consuming, I'm sure that the committee                  
  has been informed that because of district court decisions                   
  herein Southeast Alaska the state law on minor consuming is                  
  not considered enforceable.                                                  
       I assume the committee is familiar with that?                           
       (Pause).                                                                
       May I assume the committee is familiar with that?                       
                                                                               
  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Yes.                                                  
                                                                               
  MS. CRAVER:  Great.  And the city and borough did take the                   
  step of creating their own minor consumer ordinance which                    
  was adopted by the Assembly on September 1st of '93 and                      
  should become effective October 1st, '93.  That attempts to                  
  establish statutory grounds for officers to take minors in                   
  custody without having to actually to see them with a can of                 
  alcohol in their hand or actually drinking it.                               
       But that's not a good long term solution to have a                      
  patchwork number of municipal statutes and ordinances across                 
  the state trying to enforce this problem.  And the MCAJ                      
  believes that the state law should be amended and I would                    
  say I personally, as an attorney who has to occasionally                     
  enforce these ordinances, also believe that it should be                     
  amended.                                                                     
       And it is a statewide policy issue and thus would be                    
  suitable for that (indiscernible) statute.                                   
       In regards to the involuntary commitment procedure one                  
  of the objectives of the Task Force apparently is to find                    
  ways to become more efficient.  And as one of the assistant                  
  city attorneys here in Juneau for the past three years I                     
  work closely with the city agency, Juneau recovery unit that                 
  petitions for involuntary commitment of alcoholics.  And I'm                 
  the attorney that has taken the cases to court.                              
       And apparently we are one of the few communities and                    
  programs in the state that regularly takes these commitments                 
  to the courts.  So, I guess you would say that we are                        
  successful.  We've even gotten orders after jury trials for                  
  persons to be committed and that's no easy feat.                             
       My comment though on the current statutory framework is                 
  that we currently, because of the way the statute is,                        
  potentially have to go through three separate jury trials in                 
  order to get someone committed to treatment for a total of                   
  210 days.                                                                    
       And most of the people that I have seen, the treatment                  
  professionals, they would benefit from two years or more of                  
  in patient treatment.  And the cost to the system, the court                 
  system, not counting the costs to the city attorney's office                 
  is large.  Jury trials are a big deal.  They need to be set                  
  on very quickly.  The court system is not familiar with them                 
  and I think that perhaps it would be valuable to do some                     
  research and gathering of evidence from other states to find                 
  out how they deal with this issue and what kind of statutes                  
  should they use.                                                             
       It seems to me that although the statute that we have                   
  now can be used they require fairly sophisticated users.                     
  Such as the city attorney who's done this several times.  I                  
  know from my part the only reason I can do these cases is                    
  because the petitioner is Juneau Recovery Unit which is a                    
  sophisticated petitioner.  The statute allows for a                          
  guardian, a relative, a parent of a person to come in, but I                 
  don't see how a lay person could actually put these papers                   
  through court.  The courts themselves are not very familiar                  
  with the papers and they can provide no assistance.                          
       So, it takes a pretty specialized practitioner with                     
  experience to do the paperwork to get the case before the                    
  court and then I'm saying after you get the case before the                  
  court and say you have a jury trial and you're successful,                   
  the person is committed for 30 days.  And that's not what a                  
  person who qualifies for involuntary commitment needs.                       
  These are chronic alcoholics.  That 30 day program has                       
  failed consistently in the past.                                             
       So, MCAJ says that their position is that it needs more                 
  research and it would be very helpful to re-evaluate this                    
  procedure and see if we can make some needed changes.  And                   
  this population who needs these longer term care are                         
  utilizing increasing proportions of local and state                          
  resources and that changes in the law could increase the                     
  possibility for their success and treatment.                                 
       My personal experience in prosecuting those cases is                    
  that it could be improved.                                                   
       And that's all I have unless there's any questions.                     
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  One comment.  We've already identified you                 
  as a potential source for a little bit of assistance in                      
  taking a look at that commitment statute.  Senator Taylor's                  
  people will probably be dropping a dime on you as they say                   
  in the profession.                                                           
       I really appreciate your testimony.                                     
       I would like to ask one thing.  It has been mentioned                   
  that if you go through this horrendous process and actually                  
  get a commitment, and you have, where do you commit them to?                 
                                                                               
  MS. CRAVER:  We have -- Steve Hamilton is actually in the                    
  room listening, but the places I'm familiar with is we have                  
  -- we've tried places around the state.  We've had Nugent's                  
  Ranch, have sent people to Nugent's Ranch.  Sent people to                   
  Akeela House or attempted to send them there.                                
       And Greg Pease is in the room, also, and he says Craig                  
  Human Services is taking long term care of people now.  I                    
  haven't done that particular place, yet.                                     
       But we don't seem to have a problem down here in Juneau                 
  with the idea of a closed treatment program.  What we do is                  
  if a person leaves the treatment program, at least if they                   
  leave jail in Juneau, we then file a motion for contempt of                  
  court, a motion to show cause why that person violated the                   
  court order and ask for a penalty of civil contempt which                    
  could be indefinitely.                                                       
       Basically they say the keys to the jailhouse are in                     
  your own hands.  As soon as you're saying you're going to go                 
  treatment you can go.  But until then you're going to stay                   
  in jail.                                                                     
       So, we use any treatment program that our professionals                 
  think is available and we haven't had the problem with                       
  having to find a closed facility, yet.                                       
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Okay.  Thank you very much.                                
                                                                               
  MS. CRAVER:  Thank you.                                                      
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  We'll follow up by Senator Taylor.                         
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  Yeah.  Barbara, before you leave, thank you                 
  very much for taking the time to sit around today and give                   
  us your testimony.  I really appreciate it.                                  
       Jean Books is going to give us a little help down here                  
  through my staff, Joe Ambrose (ph) and we're going to start                  
  work on that commitment, expediting it a bit.  And if you                    
  could help on that we would really appreciate it.                            
       And you'd also -- I've asked my secretary, Mary Hoyt,                   
  to send up to you a copy of the bill that we've already                      
  filed, prefiled so to speak.  It hasn't been assigned a                      
  number, yet, it won't be read across the floor of the Senate                 
  until the first morning there in January when we meet.  But,                 
  I'll send you a copy of that up.  If you could review it                     
  also and give me some of your good thoughts on how we might                  
  improve this legislation on minor in possession by                           
  consumption.  I'd appreciate that help, too.                                 
                                                                               
  MS. CRAVER:  Be happy to look at it.  Thank you.                             
                                                                               
  SENATOR TAYLOR:  Yeah.  Thank you, very much.                                
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Thanks again, Barbara.  And you mentioned                  
  Greg.  Is he available to testify?                                           
       Greg Pease?                                                             
                                                                               
  MS. CRAVER:  Yes.                                                            
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Welcome, Greg.                                             
                                                                               
  MR. GREG PEASE:  Thank you.  And thank you for giving me the                 
  opportunity to speak today.  Can you all hear me?                            
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Just fine.                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  All right.  I'm the executive director of                        
  (indiscernible) Human Services here in Juneau.  We were on                   
  (indiscernible) Manor, which is the oldest halfway house and                 
  treatment program in the state of Alaska.  Glacier Manor                     
  which is a CRC, funded through the Department of                             
  Corrections, also the oldest CRC community residential                       
  center with the department.  We run the City Misdemeanor                     
  Center, predominantly misdemeanor cases, DWI offenders,                      
  which serve their sentence with us and work community work                   
  service while they serve their sentences as a sentencing                     
  option in really giving something back to the community.                     
       We run the city and borough as of about the first of                    
  the month.  Their long term program -- and you've been                       
  talking about the commitments, long term commitments,                        
  involuntary commitments this afternoon.  We run the inmate                   
  substance abuse treatment program over at Lemon Creek                        
  Correctional Center.                                                         
       And I want to talk... in addition to being the                          
  executive director, I sit on the board for the Alaska                        
  Coalition on Housing and Homelessness, which is a statewide                  
  organization dealing with housing and with the homeless and                  
  this issue.  I want to talk -- I want to make one brief                      
  comment about the need for increased treatment services and                  
  treatment options within the correctional system.  Not only                  
  inside but outside of the institutions.                                      
       I think that with the number of people that are                         
  incarcerated and serving time for -- especially alcohol                      
  related offenses that the Department of Corrections and the                  
  state really needs to increase the options that are                          
  available inside of our correctional system.                                 
       Because we run residential programs, these next                         
  comments are going to be about the type of people within                     
  programs.  A recent survey of residential recovery centers                   
  has pointed out that the majority of the participants in                     
  recovery home programs nationwide and including Alaska                       
  suffer from serious housing problems.  There's a group that                  
  are in substantial danger of returning to a homeless status                  
  when they leave our programs.                                                
       The data supports the understanding that without an                     
  adequate supply of housing, alcohol agencies continue to be                  
  exploited mostly for a provision of shelter.                                 
       The studies re-enforce, and there are a number of them                  
  that concern progress accomplished in alcohol and other drug                 
  treatment programs will be undermined at the point of                        
  graduation for those lacking in secure and supportive living                 
  environment into which they can move.                                        
       To meet the specific needs of the homeless individuals                  
  with alcohol and other drug problems, I believe policy                       
  makers must in the near and in the future integrate the work                 
  of alcohol and other drug treatment programs with that of                    
  housing developers and housing agencies.  Like AHFC.                         
       Combined in doing departmental planning.  Specific                      
  attention must be given to the post recovery and aftercare                   
  needs as well as capital funding needs.  What the future                     
  holds in terms of services is going to have to be not simply                 
  the issue of bricks and mortar and where we put the                          
  buildings, but the issue of what kind of support services                    
  we're willing to fund.  Many of you are HUD and national                     
  housing organizations now referring to even low income                       
  housing projects as in enhanced housing whereby you may even                 
  cite a satellite police precinct in a low income housing                     
  development as well as support of case workers in alcohol                    
  and other drug counselors.                                                   
       Whether homelessness is a cause or effect of alcohol or                 
  other drug related problems our response must acknowledge                    
  the complexity of the different factors and integrate                        
  services and approaches that will change the systems                         
  involved rather than focusing the majority of efforts on                     
  individual behavioral changes.                                               
       Communities must be made aware of the fact that                         
  substance abuse problems and homelessness are                                
  interdependent.  This abuse (indiscernible) barriers to                      
  housing and shelter and places an additional burden on low                   
  income people already having difficulties with housing.                      
       Conversely, the absence of housing increases the                        
  problems of abuse by leaving the abusers vulnerable to                       
  maltreatment, illness and criminal activity.  I believe we                   
  need to combine what we know about treatment, what we know                   
  about housing and create a community partnership that                        
  supports recovery and self-sufficiency by providing alcohol                  
  and drug free living environments for any individual who                     
  needs that support to live independently.                                    
       The models exist from Boston to Portland.  The Federal                  
  Oxford Model revolving loan fund is in place in Alaska right                 
  now and warrants support and increased use by the Division                   
  of Alcohol and Drug Abuse.                                                   
       Comprehensive programs for the homeless start with                      
  aggressive, sometimes long term, outreach and intervention.                  
  They should provide short term detox, longer inpatient care,                 
  halfway house settings and long term alcohol and drug free                   
  residential settings.                                                        
       Addiction treatment programs that are modeled on the 28                 
  day inpatient program assume a strong home environment after                 
  treatment.  Treatment for more seriously impaired homeless                   
  people must be offered for longer periods of time and must                   
  be followed by aftercare and facilities that support                         
  sustained recovery.  Such as halfway houses and long term                    
  sober living environments.                                                   
       Out patient treatment not only fails to provide                         
  sufficient structure, but also fails to address the most                     
  salient factor in relapse.  That is, continuing to live in                   
  an environment that strongly encourages alcohol and drug                     
  abuse.                                                                       
       According to the national coalition for the homeless                    
  report that was conducted recently, the single most                          
  significant impediment to recovery among homeless alcoholics                 
  and addicts was the absence of recovery housing.  Alcohol                    
  and drug free residential settings are an essential step at                  
  the end of an active treatment program and must be                           
  incorporated into a long term recovery and aftercare                         
  process.                                                                     
       These so called, and we can call them such, sober                       
  hotels prevent the revolving door syndrome whereby addicted                  
  homeless people return to neighborhoods or as we read in the                 
  Juneau paper recently down on the streets in Juneau and                      
  constantly complained about because they caused tourist                      
  flaws, so to speak in our community as such, they revolve                    
  through this syndrome.  And when addicted homeless people                    
  return to their neighborhoods with permissive drinking and                   
  drug abusing cultures, the cycle of addictions and                           
  homelessness once again then repeats itself.                                 
       So, basically, as someone who has worked in this                        
  program for six years and chaired the Juneau Municipal                       
  Mental Health and Social Service Advisory Board for about                    
  the same amount of time, I have seen people come back                        
  through the system.  Not only through our recovery program                   
  system, but through the criminal justice system.  And it's                   
  because they are once again forced in a number of respects                   
  to associate with, once again, abusing relatives, peer                       
  group, friends and become victimized and not offered a safe                  
  and sober place to live that we once again see them come                     
  back through the system.                                                     
       And so I'll end my comments on that note and ask if                     
  there are any questions.  And once again, I want to applaud                  
  the efforts of the Task Force for your work and look forward                 
  to working with you at any time in the future.                               
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Greg, thank you very much.  Representative                 
  Mulder has a question.                                                       
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  All right, Greg.  This year, as you                  
  know, we passed the HB 136, which is related to alternative                  
  sentencing for those convicted of DWI's.                                     
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  Bless your heart.                                                
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Well, it certainly should make a                     
  little more business for you.                                                
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  It's what we should have been doing a long time                  
  ago and I applaud the legislation.  It makes a heck of lot                   
  more sense.  Especially in the fact that a number of people                  
  that are incarcerated in a correctional facility are                         
  subsequently victimized by the perpetrators who live in the                  
  correctional facilities.  And those people who can come out                  
  into the community now and spend their time at a CRC or                      
  halfway house and pay their fair share, it makes so much                     
  more sense as an alternative to have them, as I said, giving                 
  something back.                                                              
       There are a number of community work service programs                   
  that I hope that the judges and the judiciary of this state                  
  will look at alternatives sanctions as pointed out in the                    
  sentencing commissioner report, which make a lot more sense                  
  when looking at the criminal justice system and the over                     
  burdened court system in it's present form.                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Well, I appreciate the -- I was just                 
  curious, has Public Safety operationalized the bill already?                 
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  October 1st.                                                     
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Has your facility been accredited?                   
  And if so, how many beds have been accredited?                               
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  Accredited....                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Certified I mean.                                    
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  .....through the DOC?                                            
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Yes.                                                 
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  We're already an accredited facility with the                    
  DOC.  So, we probably will see -- we'll be bringing on four                  
  more beds October 1st and four more January 1st.                             
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE MULDER:  Well, I would sure consider it a                     
  personal favor, Greg, if you keep me posted in terms of the                  
  progress of the program and also the relative effectiveness                  
  of it.                                                                       
                                                                               
  MR. PEASE:  Oh, I will and I think that the other facilities                 
  up in the Anchorage area and Fairbanks are also going to be,                 
  you know, implementing that.  And I see it as a real plus                    
  and you know only positive things coming from it.                            
       Right now we basically do the same thing in Juneau for                  
  the City and Borough of Juneau and have for the last two                     
  years.  Juneau used to send all of it's DWI's to Lemon Creek                 
  Correctional Center where they spent their sentence.  Now,                   
  we opened up, as I mentioned, a misdemeanor center and part                  
  of the design of that was to allow the city and borough to                   
  -- and the judges to remand them into our custody and they                   
  would serve their sentence immediately so you would have                     
  immediate punishment.                                                        
       And in addition to that, rather than sitting around and                 
  doing whatever they do in the institutions, they do all the                  
  paper recycling now in Juneau.  The state paper, office                      
  paper.  They pick it up, they sort it, and they get down to                  
  the docks and ship it out.  This is in conjunction with one                  
  of the nonprofit organizations.  It's a joint venture with                   
  the Flying Lion's Club here.                                                 
       But this can be expanded.  I have even made proposals                   
  to Penwire (ph), if you're familiar with that.  It's Pacific                 
  Northwest economic region incorporating the Canadian                         
  Providences of British Columbia and Alberta with Alaska,                     
  Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana to offer really a                      
  labor intensive industry, that of recycling to be handled                    
  just in this fashion, by having those individuals remanded                   
  into a program and the community work service system                         
  structured to take care of community problems.                               
       Like litter.  We pick up 700 pounds of litter on the                    
  weekend here on the roadsides in Juneau with community work                  
  service people.  We also do approximately, I think, last                     
  year alone around 30 to 50,000 hours of community work                       
  service not only with city agencies but other government                     
  agencies and nonprofit agencies for everything from snow                     
  removal to ADA wheelchair ramp construction.                                 
       This has saved the city and borough in the last three                   
  years since the program began approximately $200,000.00 a                    
  year just in prisoner bed care daily costs per year, not to                  
  mention the costs of the community work service.  So, it                     
  just took some foresight on that of the city police                          
  department and instantly we cut down on the wait list of                     
  people who were waiting to serve their sentence for driving                  
  under the influence.                                                         
       And so once again, I think that -- because we've been                   
  doing it for quite some time anyway -- that we're gong to                    
  see the same kind of results with the legislation that comes                 
  on line with public safety October 1st.                                      
       Working in community corrections, I also serve as the                   
  chair of the international organization called IACRA,                        
  International Association of Community Residential                           
  Alternative Programs and nationwide we're seeing much more                   
  use of community work services as sanction reporting centers                 
  and a number of other sanctions that were talked about in                    
  this commission report and the Task Force that were held                     
  prior to the publishing of the final commission's report.                    
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Okay, Greg, thank you very much for your                   
  testimony.                                                                   
       I have no more indications of people available to                       
  testify or desirous of it.                                                   
       Let me go through our sites and make sure that that is                  
  correct?                                                                     
       Is there anyone still available that wants to testify                   
  in Sitka?  (No response)                                                     
       In Juneau?                                                              
                                                                               
  MS. CRAVER:  No.                                                             
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Could you give us you name and your                        
  testimony, please.                                                           
                                                                               
  MS. CRAVER:  No.  We have nobody here left to testify.  Just                 
  observers.                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN PORTER:  Okay.  Thank you.                                          
       How about in Craig? (No response)                                       
       And Fairbanks?      (No response)                                       
       Anchorage?          (No response).                                      
       Petersburg?         (No response).                                      
       Okay.  We have concluded the reception of testimony for                 
  this afternoon.  There is no one left here in Ketchikan                      
  that's desirous to testify.                                                  
       I thank you all very much for your input and we will be                 
  checking in tomorrow to see if there's any further need in                   
  Southeastern for further input.                                              
       With that we'll sign off and say thank you, again.                      
       (Off record)                                                            
                                                                               
  END OF PROCEEDINGS                                                           

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